By Suede Nikita
I plagiarised most of this via Facebook from one of the few authentic Islamic scholars people have access to in the UK – Sheikh Atabek Nasafi (http://www.avicennaanswers.com/). It shows, shall we say, the ‘counter intuitive’ views of scholars popularised in the UK by self-proclaimed ‘Muslim intellectuals’ such as Hamza Tzortzis, Haitham Haddad and Akram Nadwi.
Some of these individuals take it upon themselves to ‘demonstrate’ (I use the term in it’s loosest sense) that Islam is rational and even debate non-Muslims on this. We must be most grateful that these said non-Muslims do not know that the aforementioned ‘intellectuals’ believe in a God who has limits, climbs ropes and is in fact a giant humongous ring containing the universe within himself – for this is what their Imams or rather ‘Sheikh Ul Islam’s’ demand we believe.
Hilariously, Tzortzis recently took it upon himself to remind the well known Blogger and writer Paul Williams on Twitter that revelation agrees with the ‘sound mind’.
But then how ‘sound’ are these bizarre Creeds that he himself holds as an aficionado and populariser of Ibn Taymiyya et al? Perhaps sensing his shaky intellectual foundations, he has recently taken to quote mining Al Ghazzali (neglecting to mention that Ibn Taymiyyah accused him of promoting disbelief).
Likewise, Akram Nadwi inflicts entire courses on unsuspecting Muslims aggressively promoting the belowmentioned views of Ibn Taymiyya and others of his ilk http://akramnadwi.wordpress.com/2012/09/18/akram-nadwis-strange-salafi-views-on-aqida/.
Recently, voices such as Adam Deen have come out and questioned whether Tzortzis’ repeated assertions of promoting an Islam which ‘makes sense’ actually hold water: http://adamdeen.com/2014/06/03/intellectual-apostasy/
I will have to leave it to the reader to judge if Tzortzis and companies claims of being ‘both religious and rational’ ring true in light of the teachings of their Imams…
The man Salafis insist is ‘Shaykh of Islam’ (‘Doctor Maximus’) Usman Darimi writes;
”God has a Hadd (limits) but no one knows it except him. No one should imagine God’s limits as his own limits. We believe in Hadd, but we leave it’s knowledge to God. Space is also limit. And He is on his Arsh above the heavens.”
So there are not one but two ‘limits’ to God!?
My actual face when I read that
These two words; ‘Hadd’ and ‘Makanah’, are not in the Quran nor in the Sunnah. From here we understand that when Salafi brothers say ‘we follow only what God and the Prophet say’ they are just kidding.
Darimi saying; ”We believe in Hadd but we don’t know it’s meaning” is him merely fooling people because he says; ”Space is also Hadd (limit)”. So, if we don’t know the meaning of Hadd, then how does he know that ‘Hadd’ and ‘Space’ are in fact the same?
In this text, Shaykh of ”Islam”, Ibn Taymiyyah is discussing the physical position of God as related to the Arsh (‘Throne’) and the ‘Spheres’ (of the Heavens as per the Greek and Ptolemaic system). He is discussing what he considers are the two possibilities regarding the shape of the Arsh – firstly that it is circular or secondly that it is flat.
He then uses ‘geometry’ (I use the term very loosely) to clarify the ‘position’ of God vis-a-vis each of these two possibilities (which are in fact both impossible, but leave that aside for the time being), saying that if the Arsh is circular then God is surrounding it, and is thus still above the universe because ‘the outside of the circle from it’s centre is towards the ‘above” (according to Ibn Taymiyyah).
But if the Arsh is flat then God being above it means that the ‘six directions’ are applicable on the creation only, but as for God there are only ‘two directions’ ‘Above’ and ‘Beneath’. And because the universe is ‘beneath’ so he must be above. Why only two directions apply is not explained and geometry is perfunctorily abandoned regarding this claim.
After all of this (and much more) he says;
”We don’t attribute to God anything he didn’t attribute to himself. Mutakallims are Kuffar because they use Greek philosophy to describe God”
Maybe he thinks that Geometry is not a ‘Greek’ thing (although even Aristotle would have considered applying geometry to God to be heresy)…
Geometry teaches amongst other things ‘shape’ or ‘topology’ maybe. But it is not applicable to God, and nor is direction or being in need of a place as Ibn Taymiyyah is insists on doing.
Back to Usman Darimi again:
”Because the Alive Sustainer does whatever he wants; So he moves if he wants, comes down if he wants, grabs if he wants, releases if he wants, sits if he wants.That’s because the difference between the alive and dead thing is ”Harakah” (movement). So each living thing moves! And each dead thing doesn’t move!”
Does the Quran and Sunnah say that the difference between living and dead things is ‘movement’? Or that the life of God is like the life of the dependant creatures? Not at all. So where then did the Salafis get this from? It is a hodgepodge of Greek philosophy, amateur biology and God knows what else. But where is the Islamic foundation for this heretical claim?
So Dharimi compares God to animals. Because according to him, the difference between dead animals and alive animals is movement. Hmm.. and then Salafis criticise Hanafis and other for using ‘Qiyas’ or analogy. But here they are using an ‘analogy’ very freely. For God. With animals.
He also tells us God does ‘whatever he wants’. So can God become Jesus then? Or Satan? God only does things that are possible for him – he can’t decide to stop being God for example. But that is a digression.
I have two questions of ‘Imam’ Darimi:
1. Where is the mention of ”Harakah” or God moving in Quran or Sunnah. Like, at all?
2. Who told you that it is permissible to compare God with creatures or animals and to thus set up a new ”Sifah” (Attribute) of God?
Usman Darimi carries on;
”God did touch Adam while creating him. And He didn’t touch anything else!”
The Arabic ”Masees” means ‘touching’. But where is it in the Quran and Sunnah!?
As you can see, it’s not quite like when Salafis tell us that they follow the ‘Quran and Sunnah’.
So I suggest to my Salafi brothers and sisters: stop insulting people by saying ‘He is an innovator, he rejects the Sunna, he is an apostate’ etc and lets go back together to the original teachings of the Quran.
Since you love to insult people by claiming they are opposing Bukhari or hadith, as you can see, the method of your Imams is opposing the Quran itself.
So which one is worse?
At least we Hanafis have our conditions to test Hadeeth and thus accept them or reject them. But do you have any principles which allow you to reject the Quran?
Or are you rejecting it merely because Ibn Taymiyyah and Darimi etc. rejected it?
Many of you are shocked and do not believe in what you see here.
Some of you will start looking for excuses for these imams. Some of you will go to sheikh such and such and so and so to get some ‘explanation’.
I know this reaction well.
It usually happens when you find reality to be different to what you thought it to be. All of these sheikhs that you go to for explanations will talk a lot in order to convince you.
But keep in mind that they will never actually answer your question. Instead they will just take you around and around in circles.
But only the real genuine Muslims amongst us will be able to put the Quran above these useless beliefs.
I always knew Ibn Taymiyyah was a non-believer from all his ‘God climbs ropes’ and insulting Ali and Fatima crap…but from this I have learnt that he also used to get high on PCP before sitting down to write about theology.
Utterly disgusting specimens.
Thanks a lot Nikita!
Better call yourselves kuffar assemble
Okay, as long as you change your name to ‘Idol Worshipping Wannabee Christian Mujassim Moron Failed Rapist Suicide Bomber’ instead of ‘Salafi’!
You are connecting suicide bombing which is according to some salafi opinions and to all madhhabi opinions allowed with mujassim aqida which you consider to be wrong. You make takfir of yourself again and again.
So like I don’t see my name on the list ? I mean sure I don’t agree with the a lot of the stuff but still agreeing with even one point out of 1000 should be enough right ?
Come on be a pal and includey me !
Takfir on Adam Deen, Paul Williams, Shabir Ally, Timothy Winters, Atabek Shukurov, Hafiz Mahmut, Nelson Mandela, Nabahani, Muhammad Yaqoubi, Wahba Az Zuhayli, Ramadan Al Buti, Habib Ali Al Jifri, Mother Teresa, Tahir ul Qadri, Ibn Sina, Farabi, Darimi, Abu Ismail Al Harawi and mmmclru.
Note: List to be extended.
Takfir on you too ‘bro’. For huffing and puffing like the Big Bad Wolf only to reveal yourself to have the temperament of an angry little kid. Go home now, there’s cookies to make you feel better 😛
Maybe to include your mum?
Salafi; according to Islam, what happens to YOU if even ONE of these Takfirs is false and even one of these people is a Muslim?
A takfir is based on some facts. The facts are enough to make takfir on these people. If they were muslims then I could not know anyway since they are showing their kufr openely. So nothing happens. I am not making takfir out of fun.
Your ‘facts’ are non-existent SalaFAIL (not unusual for your kind), but your stupidity is obvious and clearly visible. To echo your own advice, why don’t you get your own blog and have your takfeer revelries over there. Why litter at other people’s backyards?
Bismillahi rahmani raheem, I’ve seen a few of Hamza Tzortzis lecturers and he has never characterised himself as a scholar when he is asked about his qualifications he gives them in a straight forward manner and never gives a false impression. As for you claims he is rational, yes he follows Ibn Taymiya but he is also relatively new to islam and thinks for himself which is why he quotes non salami’s like Imam al Ghazali and much of what he says has a basis in Imam al Ghazalis works.
Islam is rational and spiritual you can’t deny either of them, the only thing that falls short is peoples understanding of islam and imam al Ghazali completely rationalised islam because Allah in the Quran does this, but most people are not knowledgeable enough to know how.
excuse the spelling the spell check got the better of the post unfortunately, happens when its set to automatic.
He is not that new to Islam and being a convert does not allow him to confuse people by quoting Mujassims that can make people lose their Iman by believing the creation is ‘inside’ God. If he is so lacking in knowledge then don’t put himself forward in front of people instead of quoting and saying ‘Ibn Taymiyyah is amazing, a great scholar’. Then will he take responsibility on the day of Judgement for that person believing that Allah climbs ropes? Or what about his teacher Haddad saying Bin Laden is a Martyr? Or promoting FGM. I think you are doing too much Hussan Ul Zahn and willing to risk peoples Islam just to give Tzortzis a chance.
He only started quoting Al Ghazzali because people like this site exposed and criticised and exposed him and because he wants to keep getting bookings, money (and girls) from non-Wahhabis.
He should stick to practising misyar on unsuspecting girls, which is all he is good at.
Gummi you are a kafir.
You’re a clown. Thanks for the free entertainment
Indeed Jock! But I told you Salafi, you are blocked, this isn’t a free throw a takfir tantrum service: If you want counselling you will have to pay for it like everyone else. Further comments will be deleted (unless they give us a laugh as Jock said).
Salafi you should watch this, the shaykh’s language can miraculously cure people from feeling the urge of making takfir and bidaah claims. The shaykh has so much baraka you won’t believe how it works, just watching it once will stop you from saying kafir and bidah.
Sorry dude, we don’t want to post promos of your favourite scholars unless you first give us their argumentation or reasoning and how it is relevant to the debate. We didn’t set up this site to do free advertising!
Also, are you seriously claiming this guy has miraculous qualities and ‘just watching it once’ cures takfiri tendencies?!
no idiot i was being sarcastic at the salafi, watch the video before you judge and accuse someone of something, no he isn’t my “favourite scholar” little kid, but he says Kufr and bidah often enough to cure any salafi from using them.
What jahaliya is this you can’t even see what someone says before making accusations, in our Deen and this is fiqh (Law), false accusation are punishable by whipping.
Hmmmm…very good behaviour.
We see how deeply adhab and the Sunnah has penetrated into your character, yet you are happy to give us advice on these and threaten us with whipping? It seems the internet and blogs have become an outlet for all of the insane and deranged people.
No-one accused you of anything except what you yourself said: so you would go into court and say ‘I am a rapist’ and then demand that the jury be flogged for believing you because you were being ‘sarcastic’? In any case, you need to look up what ‘sarcasm’ is as you do not understand it. Perhaps you mean the word ‘facetious’.
It’s not our fault that your jokes are so ‘funny’ that no-one can even tell that it was a joke…
In any case, we are not under any obligation to go along with your ‘jokes’ and watch things unless you give us reasons to do so: since your reasons were false, all the better to remove your video. We do this with all videos unless someone bothers to put an explanation of why the video was posted and a summary of it’s contents.
And such as you would tell us about the deen and fiqh, from your own mouth as if you are a mujathid or narrator of positions! Such an ego and such inadequate knowledge to back it up and yet you threaten us and call us idiots and children? It is very clear who is an idiot, though it is a long time since one came across a child as banal as yourself.
Stop wasting our time and invest in a dictionary.
LOL! What a fool: he is trying to ‘correct’ the Salafi and then goes on a total MENTAL tantrum and calls you ‘idiot’ and ‘child’ and ‘jahil’ and threatens to have you flogged because you politely declined to include his video (which you guys never do on this site anyway) and didn’t get his joke?! He’s just as crazy as the Salafi, just that his favourite cult leaders must have warned him off (public) takfir! And these are the types of people who want to ‘educate’ others about Islam: you can see how unhinjed he is from his reaction!
Shame on you waster!
I didn’t think he was joking either
OMG how many kuffar do you have here? mishima, Jock, Adil and now Johnny. Too much kuffar for me. I should leave this site.
Uh…last time I checked, you were banned. Like, weeks ago.
Are you lonely or something? Why do you keep returning to tell us you are leaving when we banned you? It is like telling a girl who refused to give you her number that you won’t have sex with her.
Keep up the good work you guys (mmcluru and others). You ever think these guys should learn some new words. Kuffar, Bidah and other petty insults become so bland and meaningless overtime. Makes you wonder whether there’s something about Salafi cults that kills off the imagination.
I love Shaykh Muhammad Akram Nadwi <3. Not once have I ever seen him 'aggressively promote' any view or opinion, but rather stresses the Muslims to learn, think critically and understand, and follow.
So what? You loving him is a proof of. ..nothing. I can’t believe you even said that!
His aggressive denial of mainstream Sunni beliefs has been supplied. Explain it or keep your love to yourself.
I love Oreos. And?