A scintillating presentation by Sheikh Atabek Shukurov: in my sadly long experience with Muslim scholars in the U.K, he is the only one I have found who adheres to the traditional positions of Islam and does not introduce prejudiced and puritanical innovations into the religion.
His talk on the ‘massacre’ of the Jews of Banu Qurayza was superb and showed the inadequacy of many of the Dawah carriers and here he gives a detailed and nuanced answer on this other favourite topic of Islamophobes and modernists.
Where else will you find a near two hour lecture just on this topic? And that’s just part one.
This guys talks are ‘bespoke’ for Islamic apologists. I hope you guys pay heed instead of spamming the same old stuff.
Whenever this topic is brought up it seems to elicit strong reactions from Muslims, with the differing views calling each other ‘modernists’ or ‘backward’ and so on. Some see it as an ‘open and shut’ case not worthy of discussion and not accommodating of dissent.
But what was the REAL position of the early Muslims on this issue?
Did they even make such a big deal out of it?
Why are both sides so determined to prove their case?
Is there another agenda here?
This talk is balanced and detailed and transcends mere polemics and cultural biases and highlights the actual strength of Muslim theologians vis – a – vis other religious functionaries: the ability to engage in critical thinking.
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What is Sheikh Shukurov’s conclusion regarding her age?
16 or 18.
No one can be sure.
But it ain’t 9. No matter how much people would like it to be.
Oh perfect. Thanks very much for the response. Salaams.
“What is Sheikh Shukurov’s conclusion regarding her age?”
So, it seems you’re too lazy to watch the videos for yourself and expect other people to do your job for you ?
To tell the truth, I am not inclined either to view those videos, though not perhaps out of the same motives as you.
I have become very uninterested in any polemic over Aisha’s age ever since I heard Imran Husein’s one-sentence
answer to it. It happened during the Q&A session after a speech. Some troublemaker in the audience picked up that
classical trick question, “What do you think about the polemic around Aisha’s early marriage to the Prophet” (it was rather unrelated to the talk’s subject by the way) and the sheikh answered “If that hadith was truthful, that early marriage would be part of Sunna, an example massively followed and praised by Muslims worldwide. Is it the case ? This is obviously a fabricated hadith. “
“So, it seems you’re too lazy to watch the videos for yourself and expect other people to do your job for you?”
Well, that’s a bit unfair, and unkind don’t you think? Both vids combined are over three hours. You’re correct, I don’t have the time. Regardless, thank you for the answer though I’d still like to know what Sheik Shukurov believes her age was.
I sincerely apologize if that sounded offensive to you. It wasn’t meant to be
No worries 🙂
To make this argument like Imran Hussein you have to believe in Muhammad already.
I would say that I doubt that someone would fabricate this. I mean no one would say anything if it was 13 years. But nine? Why did they fabricate it? Why did not Bukhari and all other historians reject this narration?
But that is only my personal feeling and I would have to look at the arguments presented in this video.
But another point of view is that even if this hadith is totally fake, it is still something believed by most Muslims and Muslim scholars at any time. So even if it is totally wrong, how much does Allah hate us? And more important, how much does Allah hate Muhammad, his Habeeb so that he let the whole world believe he was a sex addict without limits except nine years of age?
So yes, there might be many narrations about many bad things that are fabricated. But it is too late to revise them in the 21st century.
Uh? Since when does the date determine when someone can make a historical analysis or not? I think its also likely that we probably have Khadija’s age wrong too, and chances are she was quite a lot younger then is usually assumed.
In many societies now, people aren’t even sure how old they or others are; even some older pakistanis I know who are educated don’t know their own ages. I doubt they knew to much precision in the 7th century. Furthermore, exaggerating to extremes is something people often do, wittingly or not. Even now, Muslims love to emphasize just how much older Khadija was then the Prophet (saw), despite the fact that in ‘Muslim culture,’ marrying a woman who is at all older then the man is often not generally accepted.
The ‘even if the hadith is wrong, how much does Allah hate us’ paragraph is just another way of saying ”why didn’t God make Muslims free from errors?” even ones with potentially great ramifications. This problem is similar to the problem of evil in the sense that it asks ‘why do people mess up, and mess up in ways which affect others.’ The burden there is on the questioner to show that he problem is incompatible with the concept of God or a particular religion.
If God promised to keep Muslim scholars and compilers of records free from errors, there would be an inconsistency with reality which could be raised. But he didn’t.’ Only the Qur’an itself is protected.
Yeah, dude, I think I haven’t read all of your comments so I’m going to review them properly to make sure I’m not being a dick myself, but I seem to remember replying to your weak jive on another thread and you just ignored it and kept posting more emotional diarrhoea, like this where you haven’t even watched a video you are commenting on, because I don’t know how you are going to ‘look’ at the arguments, because the arguments are there in the video. Perhaps you can tell us. Are you going to chase up an early manuscript of Tabari and read it with your amazing knowledge of hard to read Arabic handwriting for example?
So my policy on this site is not very generous: when people ignore replies and troll, I tend to just block them. I’m not threatening you and I am not going to block you at all, especially as I know you ex-Muslims have the biggest victim complex of all time and would just LOVE to be blocked, but I’m just saying I remember you posting this stuff and then ignoring my reply. So I’m going to check that.
Bukhari is a ‘historian’ for you now? LOL. What’s his method then?
Look, you are Salafi. You are ‘apostate-Salafi’, you believe their form of Islam is correct. Virtually all apostates, ex-Muslims, space monkeys whatever you want to be called now are Salafi or from such families. It is important for Salafi Islam to be THE Islam for them otherwise you done messed up. So you cannot admit to YOURSELF that Salafis can be wrong. You are making up all kinds of emotional factless tripe to back that up. Your stuff is literally fact free from all I have seen.
Now to your credit, an HONEST Salafi probably WOULD have to apostate and you can’t really hold that against them. So fine. But then to go full ass and keep preaching Salafism to Muslims and telling them that that is the only way is just retarded.
Also, you literally know jack about Islam and historical sources or life. It’s not an insult, most Muslims are the same. The fact that you think that Bukhari is an ‘early’ source and that we have to trust chains when they say that Prophet married a nine year old but not when they say he flew at warp speed to heaven or that he split the moon shows that you are literally chatting rubbish.
Another example of you chatting the proverbial here is that you can’t imagine who would fabricate a narration about sex with nine year olds.
Have you heard of these people called paedophiles? Or can’t you free thinkers ‘imagine’ that?
Go and look at what age people used to get married, the life expectancy in the Roman Empire and age of marriage there as well as in some non-Muslim societies today and then try to dialogue with man.
The problem with you guys is that you have to rabidly support something. When you realise it is crap, you turn against it. Its that whole love/hate thing. So now you basically love today’s secular society blah blah and can’t ‘imagine’ anything different. You can’t say I’m falsely caricaturing you. Because you claim you can’t imagine things such as paedophilia (though people used to openly practice and talk about it in the past, even in Greek texts) nor an age of marriage below 13 (even though that was and still is common, though I’m obviously against that, not because I can’t ‘imagine’ it but because it is wrong). So I’m guessing if your imagination is that limited you are either stupid or just one of these ‘this society is the apotheosis’ clowns out there.
People usually apostate from Islam only to become uncritical cheerleaders and evangelists for secular liberalism. You never see them criticise it. They defend it rabidly. It shows how ‘free’ their thinking it. I’m not saying YOU are necessarily like that but that’s how it often is.
:::drops mic::: (that was awesome).
In his latest book, Imran Husein also provides another reason for this hadith about Aisha’s age to be fake : it conflicts with the Qur’an, namely Qur’an 4.3 which clearly states that (orphan) girls can be married only when they have reached puberty.
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